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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I've taken two rides since winter rolled into these parts in October. And I've gotten two flats, my first ever. One was a box staple, today it was a screw. Needless to say, I was pretty bummed I got less than 40 miles out of the new tube I put in, with the tire dismount/mount, that cost me about $2 per mile.

So, my questions are.

1 - For those of us still running tubes, who makes the proper size tube for the rear tire. My local shop put in an undersized Bridgestone, which seemed fine, but I'd rather have the right spec tube.

2 - For those of you running Outex since 2014, 2015, how is it holding up? Any issues with the seal going bad over time?

3 - On our 2014 models, does the rim have the appropriate hook to safely run tubeless when Outex is installed, or did that come in 2015 and later with the rim update?

4 - Are there any tubeless rims available for a reasonable price that can be laced into the 2014 hubs?

Very much looking forward to the wisdom you all will impart. . .

Tire Wheel Automotive tire Light Tread
 

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I’m riding a 2015 with tube tires and have had one flat since 2015, it was a slow leak so I could stop frequently at gas stations and pump it back up. I’ve changed sets of tires because of wear three times my self and once by a tire shop. It was not difficult to find 17” tubes here in Dallas so I’m of no help to you there… I would never run Outex … trying to make a tubeless tire from a rim that’s not airtight is futile. If you ride adventure then go tubeless .. that makes sense … if your strictly a road bike stay with a tube. In my experience … a tube tire going flat at 80 handles much better than a tubeless at the same speed.
Tubeless tires flatten much faster than tubed tires ,.. IMO … There are plenty of rim sizes available both tubed and tubeless but it’s not cheap … I was looking at 16” so I could run fat bobber style tires and that was around $1K a wheel, no tires .. just wheels .. to rich for my blood and besides … I love how Blitz corners right now .. that would go away by changing tires for the sake of looks .. ain’t happening. I’m keeping my Ross’s …. If you still can’t find the tubes you want send me the specifics, I’ll see what I can find here and If you’d like …I’ll ship you some tubes. BeWell @Granitedigger ……………………………….Blitz
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That's a very brotherly offer @BlitzSchnell , thank you. Honestly, I think it's more of a small town problem than an uncommon tube problem. I reached the same conclusion you did about Outex the first time I was looking at replacing tubes, but often wondered if placing some type of dome over each spoke nipple, leaving room for them to turn without disrupting the adhesive would cure the most obvious flaw in the concept. Ultimately, I decided changing tubes just wasn't that much of a headache, and shouldn't happen all that often. :rolleyes: I've changed tires on motocross wheels by myself regularly over the past few years, but my levers tend to leave the the rims with what we'll call a rather unattractive patina. I haven't had the heart to take them to these shiny black wheels. The good news is that I'm only 20 miles from the 49th parallel, so I can solve all my small town troubles with a quick run to Vancouver, where I'm sure I'll be able to find a shop with both the right tools and the right tubes. Who knows, I may even make a new friend or two in the process, eh? Tomorrow may be a good day for that, since MLK Day doesn't have a Canadian equivalent. In a former life I built lots of spoked bicycle wheels, so the idea of lacing a new tubeless rim into the wheel intrigues me, but I've only found replacement wheels, not rims.
 

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2 - For those of you running Outex since 2014, 2015, how is it holding up? Any issues with the seal going bad over time?
Can only, sort of/partially answer this one: I did my own solution 2 years and 8000km ago with Sika 291i marine sealant smeared on top of the domes and then taped on top of that with 3M 4411N tape on my 2018 Classic. It holds air much better than the original tubed solution. Before I had to top off air every 2 weeks or so, now maybe every 2 months.

I have the opposite experience you have, I had an instantaneous total pressure loss during a turn leaning to the right on the front tubed wheel of an XT350 and I found myself rolling on the ground across the oncoming traffic but luckily did not get hit by anything. It's very, very unlikely that a non tubed tyre will do that.
 

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Can only, sort of/partially answer this one: I did my own solution 2 years and 8000km ago with Sika 291i marine sealant smeared on top of the domes and then taped on top of that with 3M 4411N tape on my 2018 Classic. It holds air much better than the original tubed solution. Before I had to top off air every 2 weeks or so, now maybe every 2 months.

I have the opposite experience you have, I had an instantaneous total pressure loss during a turn leaning to the right on the front tubed wheel of an XT350 and I found myself rolling on the ground across the oncoming traffic but luckily did not get hit by anything. It's very, very unlikely that a non tubed tyre will do that.
That sound like a catastrophic failure … what was the cause ? Did you strike something in the road ? Was the tire worn ? Was the tube over-pressured ? What was the temperature when it happened ? What was the weight being carried on the motorcycle …………. My point is… there are many variables that go into getting a flat … including just bad luck. The different opinions about tubed or tubeless usually seems to fall between road bikes and adventure bikes.
If you need to fix a flat while trail riding then a plug is half the work … but then you weigh in that your likely to have twice as many tire issues off road than on the highway and it evens out. I think both tube and tubeless have a place in motor biking or there’d stop making one. I don’t know much about professional off-road racing but I do know professional on-road racing … racing that pushes 200 mph regularly …and they BY FAR prefer tubed tires. There are some novelty riders trying to shed the weight of tubes to gain an edge ...but the overwhelming majority of riders use tubes for high speeds …. I agree that a Tubeless tire fixes faster but tubed tires go faster …. So where you ride and how you ride have much to do with your preference. I’m sad you had a crash @laalves that’s always tough on all of us. I hope you have better luck with tubeless than I have had. I run road bikes and it’s always going to be a tubed/spoked Classic for me 👍🏻 CheersMate ……. Blitz
 

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That's a very brotherly offer @BlitzSchnell , thank you. Honestly, I think it's more of a small town problem than an uncommon tube problem. I reached the same conclusion you did about Outex the first time I was looking at replacing tubes, but often wondered if placing some type of dome over each spoke nipple, leaving room for them to turn without disrupting the adhesive would cure the most obvious flaw in the concept. Ultimately, I decided changing tubes just wasn't that much of a headache, and shouldn't happen all that often. :rolleyes: I've changed tires on motocross wheels by myself regularly over the past few years, but my levers tend to leave the the rims with what we'll call a rather unattractive patina. I haven't had the heart to take them to these shiny black wheels. The good news is that I'm only 20 miles from the 49th parallel, so I can solve all my small town troubles with a quick run to Vancouver, where I'm sure I'll be able to find a shop with both the right tools and the right tubes. Who knows, I may even make a new friend or two in the process, eh? Tomorrow may be a good day for that, since MLK Day doesn't have a Canadian equivalent. In a former life I built lots of spoked bicycle wheels, so the idea of lacing a new tubeless rim into the wheel intrigues me, but I've only found replacement wheels, not rims.
I agree Digger, I’ve been changing bike tubes for many years now …and with no problems or complaints. Take a look at a product I found a while back that’s called “Bead Buddy” To protect your rims while you spoon away at the flat tire … it’s a good product. They make many items all designed for tube users joy. At one time I thought I wanted to convert to 16” rims so I could run some fat-boy Bobber style tires but when I saw what it would cost .. for a “look” just didn’t seem worth it … not to mention that the road handling goes to hell too … I’ll stick with tubed road tires … one flat since 2015 thru 3 sets of tires working on 4 … ONE flat ! …………. anyway Dig, I’m a source if all else fails Mate …………………. BeWell & StayUpOn2 …………. Blitz
 

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Tubeless tires flatten much faster than tubed tires
My experience has been the exact opposite of this. I have had multiple punctures on my R1200RT (tubeless rims) in 48K miles and have never had anything but a slow leak until the nail/screw was removed from the tire. I was always able to ride home (potentially with a stop or two for air along the way). Some were patched, some were replaced.

I've had one flat on my R Nine T (tube rims) and the tire went flat very quickly and left me by the side of the road. Luckily I was only 4 miles from home and was able to take an Uber home, grab the rear wheel off the R1200RT and get a ride back to the Nine T to change out the tire and ride the bike home. [The following sentence added via edit after reading another reply] The puncture was caused by something similar to those on the tubeless rims... a drywall screw about an inch and a half long.

I would consider Outex or another method of sealing the rims, but I bought the BMW Rim and Tire protection when I bought the bike and I'm figuring that Outex (or similar) would void that warranty. I'll run tubes until at least the time that warranty runs out.
 

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@alegerlotz .. This Beemer of mine hasn’t been under warranty in well over 5 years so I can’t really relate to dealerships or promises they make these days or the limits it keeps you under. Tubed not tubed … Long live the difference ! Each to his own. All reasons are right. How about this … I know they manufacture a specialty tire that has a very stiff solid tire inside the tubeless tire so if you get a flat it only drops an inch or so and then rides on a stiff rubber inner tire … emergency vehicles, armored cars, battle vehicles … rides that just can’t go down because of a flat …….. do tires like that exist for motorcycles … seems like adventure bikes, dirt bikes, outdoorsmen types would be all over that kind of dependability … it CANT go flat … it can loose it’s air and performance level and it will ride pretty hard … but still support you and get you home and won’t ruin the rim …… win/win ……………….. Blitz
 

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@alegerlotz .. This Beemer of mine hasn’t been under warranty in well over 5 years so I can’t really relate to dealerships or promises they make these days or the limits it keeps you under. Tubed not tubed … Long live the difference ! Each to his own. All reasons are right. How about this … I know they manufacture a specialty tire that has a very stiff solid tire inside the tubeless tire so if you get a flat it only drops an inch or so and then rides on a stiff rubber inner tire … emergency vehicles, armored cars, battle vehicles … rides that just can’t go down because of a flat …….. do tires like that exist for motorcycles … seems like adventure bikes, dirt bikes, outdoorsmen types would be all over that kind of dependability … it CANT go flat … it can loose it’s air and performance level and it will ride pretty hard … but still support you and get you home and won’t ruin the rim …… win/win ……………….. Blitz
Hi Blitz, check on revzilla, Nutech Tubliss, its aimed at making motorcross tyres tubeless on standard spoked rims with a dual valve and sheathed tube, which keeps the tyre seated/ locked,
they have been out a few years, my friend had them on for a while,
Forest
 

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Hi Blitz, check on revzilla, Nutech Tubliss, its aimed at making motorcross tyres tubeless on standard spoked rims with a dual valve and sheathed tube, which keeps the tyre seated/ locked,
they have been out a few years, my friend had them on for a while,
Forest
Thanks for the info … but I never off road these days, I fall down to much. Getting old is not bad, it’s getting up that’s getting difficult..! Besides I’d be even more nervous than I already am when sustaining 130+ for as bloody-long as I can hold my breath before letting up …on anything but road worthy rubber. In my experience you get what you pay for …… when you like to go fast …… as fast as you can go ……. as often as you can get away with it …… spend the money it takes to own the roads you ride …. Be that Knobby, Slick, Hard, Soft, Sticky …. What ever works. When you get right you get two things … (one), you get around corners at speeds that will shock and elate you at the same time … (two) you’ll get the biggest grin on your face when you reach the apex in one piece and feel the acceleration coming on strong as you pull out and start thinking about setting up the next corner … all ..while still trying to figure why you didn’t die getting around the last turn you now see disappearing in your rear view mirror …….. Blitz’s TT tribute 100 a day, at least once every ride……..
I’m going to stick with old school traditions and tubed tires too ,,,………… thanks for the resource …….. StayUpOn2 ………………………….. 🫡Blitz
 

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Blitz’s TT tribute 100 a day, at least once every ride……..
I have a coworker who hits the 100mph mark every time he rides. It's a thing he feels he has to do. I don't get that urge for 100mph as often but I do have a thing on my way home from work: I happen to ride down the one street that is used for less than legal drag races every saturday night. Straight, well lit, very little traffic, 4 lane road that ends at an access gate to the air force base on which I work. It's smooth and very good for cleaning the carbon out of the engine. When I do let loose, I'm on 3 year old Karoo 3 adventure tires. They hold the speed well. ;)
 

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I would suggest people reading this thread google a bit on tubeless vs tubed, because a lot of the advice here on road riding/racing is the opposite to what I thought was common knowledge these days.
Do you road race your Urban ..? Please post links to the articles you’re referencing …. I read (and will post the links as soon as I can find them again) …anyway … the heart of it was, (most of these articles were about the TT and the Professional opinions of the Riders and their tire people) …and YES there are a few mostly un-sponsored clubs that are running tubeless. Their thoughts had nothing to do with performance and everything to do with weight and of course that has to do with performance. They are considered renegades and the majority of riders prefer tubes ..(that they glue to the inside of the tire).. That’s an old school trick to protect the tube nipple from torque damage …..
I suppose @sizzlingbadger if we dug deep enough we could find written opinion that filling your tubes with noble gas would make your tires smarter too. I don’t really follow anyone, I tend to listen to others opinions when they are generous enough to share thoughts with me but odds are I already have formed my conclusion … I tend to respect the pavement as it goes flashing by … inches from my tender knee cap at 80 or so … as I’m looking in near panic for the apex and a way out of what feels like a death spiral (so powerful) I’m thinking about that front tire and just how much faster I can go …… you see I can remember (while racing as a younger man) just what it was like to have tire failures that cost me the race ….. never happened with a tube ! Maybe just coincidence … who could know ?
You said Google … Here’s a Google …..

Font Screenshot Software Electronic device Technology


You can open each of those categories but …Note the last catagory …. About which rim type looses air faster …. There is a point at which the same type tire puncture in either rim type will cause catastrophic failure … it’s the tubeless … when the pressure drops low enough for the bead to separate ALL tire integrity disappears …. With a puncture in a tube the only place for the air to escape is the point of puncture .. even when the pressure gets low enough to affect the bead. So I stand my ground … Old School Rules … Again … everybody has a choice … although I live in America the majority never rules me ! ……… I aim to misbehave ……… I’ll be riding on tubes with confidence and looking down at my clock click by 135 regularly. I kiss my gas cap every time I punch 100 thinking what my life would have been like as a pro-moto-maniac. Maniacal dreams of power and trophies … oh well, next lifetime maybe ! …….,,………………… Blitz
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I sold my old Velox tubular repair kits as collectibles on eBay years ago. And I can't say I've missed the careful sewing project that had to be done after patching a punctured tubular. Haven't ever tried modern tubeless on a bicycle, butI will say I've been surprised by my experience with the two recent punctures on my r nineT.

Despite what I expected to happen, having read a lot of the discussion on tubes vs tubeless, both times the puncture resulted in a slow leak. The first, a packing staple, was picked up on an early morning ride before work. When I came out of the building 9 hours later, the rear tire was flat. I didn't even try to pump it up. I should have. When I got it back to the shop, we aired it up and held air well into the next day.

The drywall screw that I picked up last weekend that you see in the photo was as long as my little finger, and stuck straight into the tire. I saw it when I got back from my ride, and didn't notice anything troubling while riding. When I unscrewed it from the tire, I got the instant pssssssss as soon as the screw was extracted, and the tire came down quickly.

I'm assuming the 36 PSI is enough to create seals at the rim strip, the screw was an airtight plug, and the tube didn't split where punctured. It's obviously pretty risky to ride with a punctured tube, and if I'd have known, I may have asked a buddy to come grab the bike and I with a truck. All that said, I'm going to assume my luck is changing and the next tube will last for the life of the tire.

I did learn on my search for tubes that Continental tubes are not imported to the US or Canada. Who knew. . . But just about any shop can order the Metzler's made to fit the rear. Interestingly, my local BMW dealer said they'd need to order one in, and Seattle had 1 in stock. I guess there's not a lot of demand.
 

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I thought we were talking about motorcycles
The thread IS about motorcycles @sizzlingbadger, you referred me to evidence that tubeless were better IYO …specifically motorcycle tires, tube vs. tubeless …. Maybe it should be about attention span and when to concede instead of attempt to confuse … truly one of the lost and dying arts … it used to be called debate … rarely happens these days, it requires another art it’s called listening 🤔 it’s OK … as they say in Texas “No matter what, ..stick to you guns Cowboy, even when they’re empty … points awarded to both systems, for very different reasons. You might go back and re-read your posts to familiarize your self with the thread topic again .. and then do what you suggested that we do and google the topic in varying styles of inquiry and take a consensus of lots and lots of opinion’s …. for me in the interim my opinion is the only one that counts anyway, these tires AND tubes will be going on Blitz regardless …. But I’m always interested in other ideas even when I don’t agree …. The silly part is … I DO agree … tubes for track tubeless for trails …. Now where did I put my plug kit ? ………………………………………………………………………. Blitz
I sold my old Velox tubular repair kits as collectibles on eBay years ago. And I can't say I've missed the careful sewing project that had to be done after patching a punctured tubular. Haven't ever tried modern tubeless on a bicycle, butI will say I've been surprised by my experience with the two recent punctures on my r nineT.

Despite what I expected to happen, having read a lot of the discussion on tubes vs tubeless, both times the puncture resulted in a slow leak. The first, a packing staple, was picked up on an early morning ride before work. When I came out of the building 9 hours later, the rear tire was flat. I didn't even try to pump it up. I should have. When I got it back to the shop, we aired it up and held air well into the next day.

The drywall screw that I picked up last weekend that you see in the photo was as long as my little finger, and stuck straight into the tire. I saw it when I got back from my ride, and didn't notice anything troubling while riding. When I unscrewed it from the tire, I got the instant pssssssss as soon as the screw was extracted, and the tire came down quickly.

I'm assuming the 36 PSI is enough to create seals at the rim strip, the screw was an airtight plug, and the tube didn't split where punctured. It's obviously pretty risky to ride with a punctured tube, and if I'd have known, I may have asked a buddy to come grab the bike and I with a truck. All that said, I'm going to assume my luck is changing and the next tube will last for the life of the tire.

I did learn on my search for tubes that Continental tubes are not imported to the US or Canada. Who knew. . . But just about any shop can order the Metzler's made to fit the rear. Interestingly, my local BMW dealer said they'd need to order one in, and Seattle had 1 in stock. I guess there's not a lot of demand.
If you commute and ride like a normal driver … tubeless will serve you well Digger. Very quick and easy to repair on the road. It’s hard (here in Dallas) to find any tire services that will patch a tire that has been punctured period …so plugging (tubless only claim to fame, easy to plug) has its advantage but a puncture is a puncture and if it damaged the cording in the tire it can fail a very high speeds … if you rarely punch it you’ll likely be good for the life of the tire but I would be thinking about that plug every time I want to go fast so they are of no value to me what so ever ……………… interesting about Continental tubes, I didn’t know that … did you discovery why …. Political or quality issues ? …………………………………………………. Blitz.
 

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I'm actually a little surprised about this debate. I haven't had a tubed tire on a motorcycle since the mid 90s and that was on a 70s vintage R90/6. I was surprised tube tires are still a thing on street bikes. @BlitzSchnell, I completely get the idea about tubes being better in your application though. I've never had a catastrophic flat, but can see how losing pressure on a stressed tire could pull the bead loose. I can't imagine that scenario where a crash isn't inevitable. Even my mountain bicycle is tubeless but my road bicycle has tubes mostly because I'm not interested in paying the price for tubeless rims. One of my motorcycles is a tourer and being tubeless is a bonus. I had a string of flats on that bike for some weird reason many years ago and being able to plug it kept me from being stranded far away from civilization. My R9T is a Scrambler and I like the idea of plugs for it for the same reasons. I am looking to get a tube for it though to get me home in an emergency if I were to tear a tire somehow. If I was always on the street, and always pushing it, I'd seriously consider tubes but my Buell's rims were tubeless and never leaked, so it wasn't an issue. I rode them at my limits often. One was a track bike and the other was for canyon carving with my friends. Both had race tires on them. I'm fascinated by this topic. I'd love to hear more experiences people have had.
 

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The thread IS about motorcycles @sizzlingbadger, you referred me to evidence that tubeless were better IYO …specifically motorcycle tires, tube vs. tubeless …. Maybe it should be about attention span and when to concede instead of attempt to confuse … truly one of the lost and dying arts … it used to be called debate … rarely happens these days, it requires another art it’s called listening 🤔 it’s OK … as they say in Texas “No matter what, ..stick to you guns Cowboy, even when they’re empty … points awarded to both systems, for very different reasons. You might go back and re-read your posts to familiarize your self with the thread topic again .. and then do what you suggested that we do and google the topic in varying styles of inquiry and take a consensus of lots and lots of opinion’s …. for me in the interim my opinion is the only one that counts anyway, these tires AND tubes will be going on Blitz regardless …. But I’m always interested in other ideas even when I don’t agree …. The silly part is … I DO agree … tubes for track tubeless for trails …. Now where did I put my plug kit ? ………………………………………………………………………. Blitz

Your screen shot refers to pushbikes, https://www.cyclingweekly.com/ hence my previous comment.

My experience is different from yours, so I suggested that people should do their homework, that was all.

Here is one such article that Google found for me just now, and is much more in keeping with my personal experience. Tubed vs. tubeless tires: All you need to know - RevZilla
 

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I still run tubes in my standard '14. Not a big fan of tubed tires. I will probably switch to cast wheels when I find a set.
I saw a pretty good review about cast wheels Baloo… again (and I guess it always is) …about the application … not much flex in a cast wheel with out damage or failure. Seems the track is the place best suited for cast … all the bouncing and banging around involved in ADV riding seems to suit spoke wheel because they can flex. If you break a spoke or distort a rim it can be repaired but if you dent or chip your cast wheels that’s it .. The selection of tires, tubes, wheels, pressure, size, street, rally, slick etc…. is always going to be topic for debate … just make sure when you throw your leg over the saddle that you got what you want under you ……………….. complete confidence in your ride is critical to your concentration ..and focus is the first defense against the chaos that always follows a crash ..so get your ride dialed in with what you regard as the best combo for the challenge and the ride you have ahead of you …………. WhateverYouDo StayUpOn2 …………………………………………………… Blitz
 
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