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I would love to hear an answer to his question. Sad truth is haven't heard of cheap rim options, Mr Blitz 2005 gs rims will fit for your fatties.
Tubed rims from what I understand have a different bead lock to tubeless - this is why when I get around to it, will seal the spoke nipples, tape the rim but use slime in the tube. This is so I won't get stuck and can get home.
It is a dam shame all the K models have the shaft on the wrong side, otherwise there would be a ton of options.
 

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With about 500k miles split between cast and laced rims, l have only had to replace laced rims due to damage. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Having to replace a tube on the side of the road is no fun. Plug and play with a tubeless tire is my choice in the real world.
 

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I would love to hear an answer to his question. Sad truth is haven't heard of cheap rim options, Mr Blitz 2005 gs rims will fit for your fatties.
Tubed rims from what I understand have a different bead lock to tubeless - this is why when I get around to it, will seal the spoke nipples, tape the rim but use slime in the tube. This is so I won't get stuck and can get home.
It is a dam shame all the K models have the shaft on the wrong side, otherwise there would be a ton of options.
You’ll have the best of both options … great idea. I’ve been running half a bottle of green slime in my tubes for years ,… 1/2 seems to be enough to fix a leak and not enough to put the wheel out of balance when I get flying. It will get you home and at a time like a flat in the middle of no where that’s a lot ! ……………….. Blitz
 

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If I was riding down the highway at 70mph I'd much rather get a flat on a tubeless tire than a tubed tire. Tubeless wheels are built with a safety lip to prevent to tire from coming off the rim. Tube type wheels do not have that safety lip. I've never seen a tube type rim WITH a safety lip, but maybe BMW is different than the rest of the industry. Tubes are better than tubeless for off road, since you can easily remove the tire from the rim and reseat the bead, as there is no safety lip to get in the way.

For street use, and high speed, I would expect tube type tires to run hotter, and the higher weight of a tube + tire versus just the tire must be detrimental to the ride quality and handling.

1/2 seems to be enough to fix a leak and not enough to put the wheel out of balance when I get flying.
The fluid should help with the balance, not take away from it. For years I ran Ride-On TPS ( a competitor to Slime) in both my tubed and tubeless bikes. It helps seal a flat and it helps with the balance. I usually got more mileage out of a tire with TPS in it. I balanced my wheel by itself, then for the next 100,000km I never balanced the wheel with the tire installed. I simply put in Ride-On TPS. I rode the Continental Divide Trail from Canada to Mexico and of the 4 tube type bikes on the trip, three had Ride-On and one did not. We fixed flats on his bike three times. None of the other bikes got a flat. Near the end of the trip we were gearing up to leave the campground and just as we were about to pull out he spotted a nail in my tire. I pulled the nail out with pliers, fired the bike up and rode off.

A few weeks after getting home I was cleaning up the bikes and servicing them, new tubes, new tires, etc. I was curious to see what the liquid looked like in my tire after 5,000 miles so I cut the tube open. I was surprised to find a two inch long cactus needle in the tube and a small finishing nail.
 

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If I was riding down the highway at 70mph I'd much rather get a flat on a tubeless tire than a tubed tire. Tubeless wheels are built with a safety lip to prevent to tire from coming off the rim. Tube type wheels do not have that safety lip. I've never seen a tube type rim WITH a safety lip, but maybe BMW is different than the rest of the industry. Tubes are better than tubeless for off road, since you can easily remove the tire from the rim and reseat the bead, as there is no safety lip to get in the way.

For street use, and high speed, I would expect tube type tires to run hotter, and the higher weight of a tube + tire versus just the tire must be detrimental to the ride quality and handling.



The fluid should help with the balance, not take away from it. For years I ran Ride-On TPS ( a competitor to Slime) in both my tubed and tubeless bikes. It helps seal a flat and it helps with the balance. I usually got more mileage out of a tire with TPS in it. I balanced my wheel by itself, then for the next 100,000km I never balanced the wheel with the tire installed. I simply put in Ride-On TPS. I rode the Continental Divide Trail from Canada to Mexico and of the 4 tube type bikes on the trip, three had Ride-On and one did not. We fixed flats on his bike three times. None of the other bikes got a flat. Near the end of the trip we were gearing up to leave the campground and just as we were about to pull out he spotted a nail in my tire. I pulled the nail out with pliers, fired the bike up and rode off.

A few weeks after getting home I was cleaning up the bikes and servicing them, new tubes, new tires, etc. I was curious to see what the liquid looked like in my tire after 5,000 miles so I cut the tube open. I was surprised to find a two inch long cactus needle in the tube and a small finishing nail.
Sorry Gap but I go down the service road at 70+ ……. You said: “Tubeless wheels are built with a safety lip to prevent to tire from coming off the rim.” Gap, this is sort of correct … the lip is there in order to create a surface and a seal and allow the tire to hold air against the rim... that’s the safe part. Does it make it more difficult to get on and off the rim ? Yes, in some cases with out the proper equipment almost impossible to change by hand with typical gear like tire spoons. The issue that concerns me with tubeless occurs when the leak from a simple puncture reaches a level so low that the pressure in the tire isn’t enough to hold the very seal you are referring to. When that happens at high speed .. instantly .. all remaining pressure left in the tire is dumped at once and there is rim to concrete …and if it’s the front tire you better hold on … when a tube is punctured no matter how low the pressure gets it never just LETS GO …. It can only escape thru the original hole in the tube EVEN when it gets so low that the tire bead breaks …. The seal the bead makes on a tubed wheel makes no difference in maintaining the tire pressure but makes ALL the difference on a tubeless rim. I think by far the majority of riders here haven’t had many high speed failures, at 100+ is MUCH different than 40 or so. Bringing a motorcycle to a complete stop with a front tire failure from 100+ with a tube leak is tricky but most riders can pull that off … but the same senecio with a tubeless ..once the pressure drops and the rim breaks it’s seal and the concrete starts to cut through the side of the tire … almost no control trying to steer the bike … I’ve had it happen … ME, I’d rather have two pounds of pressure slowly leaking out of my tubed tire .. than NO pressure AT ALL and rolling along on the rim at 60 or so fighting not to go down or hit the brakes and crash for sure .. TubesDude
The only way to fly on a bike …. It’s not a convenience issue or ease of repair .. just my personal experiences that point me …… good luck with yours ! …. ……………………………………….. Blitz
 

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Sorry Gap but I go down the service road at 70+
I don't understand that reference. Do service roads have a lower chance of puncturing your tire than a 'highway'? I've ridden dirt at 90mph, and pavement at 10mph. A puncture can happen anywhere at any speed.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I was basing my opinion on the knowledge gained from 20 years in the motorcycle industry, years of training, about a hundred industry trade shows and training from more than one motorcycle tire manufacturer. I know that when I am out on the trail and get a flat on a tube tire and the tire is stuck to the rim all I have to do is roll the bike a little and the tire will break free, assuming I was able to stop before it already came off causing me to crash. On a tubeless rim that doesn't happen. I've ridden 30 miles on a tire with no air and a 2 inch hole in it. It never let go. The safety lip is to help in sealing the bead against the rim while inflating, and to keep the tire in place during air loss. I've had multiple flats on tubed wheels where the tire came clean off the rim while I was still moving. That's when I started using the tire sealant I mentioned above.

As for the air coming out slower with a tube? My tubes aren't loaded with artificial intelligence. When they get punctured by a 1/4" screw the air comes out at the same speed as it it does through the same 1/4" hole in the tire. The air can only escape out through the puncture hole, but once a tube is punctured, air can escape through the puncture AND through all 36 spoke holes that aren't sealed. The only difference at that point is the safety lip, which holds the bead of the tire far better than none at all. An empty tube is doing nothing to hold the tire on the rim. In retrospect though, I would be curious to see the inside rim profile on an R9T that runs tubes. Given the tire sizes we run, and that there are no tube type tires in that size, BMW may have put the safety lip on its tube wheels to accommodate the bead profile of the tubeless tire being used. Take a picture of the rim next time you change tires, I'd be curious to see if they did. The bead design on a tubeless tire isn't the same as a tubed tire, and the rim profile must match the bead.

The real disadvantage for tubes in the R9T is that it still uses tubeless tires. When you run a tube in a tubeless tire the industry guideline is to treat the setup as one load rating and one speed rating less than the tubeless tire says it can handle due to the added heat. When buying tubes, you also need to make sure to get tubes that are rated for Radial tires. Most tubes are not, which is why it is hard to find the right tubes for these bikes. Back when I had my shop Bridgestone and Metzeler were the only companies making a radial approved tube (edited) for 150/70 and 170/60 tires.
 

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I don't understand that reference. Do service roads have a lower chance of puncturing your tire than a 'highway'? I've ridden dirt at 90mph, and pavement at 10mph. A puncture can happen anywhere at any speed.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I was basing my opinion on the knowledge gained from 20 years in the motorcycle industry, years of training, about a hundred industry trade shows and training from more than one motorcycle tire manufacturer. I know that when I am out on the trail and get a flat on a tube tire and the tire is stuck to the rim all I have to do is roll the bike a little and the tire will break free, assuming I was able to stop before it already came off causing me to crash. On a tubeless rim that doesn't happen. I've ridden 30 miles on a tire with no air and a 2 inch hole in it. It never let go. The safety lip is to help in sealing the bead against the rim while inflating, and to keep the tire in place during air loss. I've had multiple flats on tubed wheels where the tire came clean off the rim while I was still moving. That's when I started using the tire sealant I mentioned above.

As for the air coming out slower with a tube? My tubes aren't loaded with artificial intelligence. When they get punctured by a 1/4" screw the air comes out at the same speed as it it does through the same 1/4" hole in the tire. The air can only escape out through the puncture hole, but once a tube is punctured, air can escape through the puncture AND through all 36 spoke holes that aren't sealed. The only difference at that point is the safety lip, which holds the bead of the tire far better than none at all. An empty tube is doing nothing to hold the tire on the rim. In retrospect though, I would be curious to see the inside rim profile on an R9T that runs tubes. Given the tire sizes we run, and that there are no tube type tires in that size, BMW may have put the safety lip on its tube wheels to accommodate the bead profile of the tubeless tire being used. Take a picture of the rim next time you change tires, I'd be curious to see if they did. The bead design on a tubeless tire isn't the same as a tubed tire, and the rim profile must match the bead.

The real disadvantage for tubes in the R9T is that it still uses tubeless tires. When you run a tube in a tubeless tire the industry guideline is to treat the setup as one load rating and one speed rating less than the tubeless tire says it can handle due to the added heat. When buying tubes, you also need to make sure to get tubes that are rated for Radial tires. Most tubes are not, which is why it is hard to find the right tubes for these bikes. Back when I had my shop Bridgestone and Metzeler were the only companies making a radial approved tire for 150/70 and 170/60 tires.
Wow … I just learned a bunch … thank you, Your logic and the way you put it together makes me rethink … but my stubborn old-ness and old school indoctrination … and frankly my 50+ UpOn2 just make me uncomfortable on tubless. You can laugh but it’s kind of reminds me of putting on my pants with out my underwear …it can be done ...but it can get horribly uncomfortable and go terribly wrong in a hurry. May be it’s some generational thing but it seems to me if tubeless hung the moon .. then that option would be the only option available because no one would want to be running tubes anyway …. I stood in a tire shop a while back mid-year 22 waiting for almost 4 hours to get some tires mounted I had to have, I sure saw a mess of tubes go across that counter for all kinds of bikes. Somebody seems to like tubes !
I’m hoping it takes me a while to get you a picture of my rim profile … only because it’s going to take a flat to make me break it down. I’m hoping someone out there is running 2015 Classic spoke and has one available with the tire off …..
The tip about Radial tubes … that’s a jewel ! I did not know they were rated that way at all. Thanks.
you said: “Back when I had my shop Bridgestone and Metzeler were the only companies making a radial approved tire for 150/70 and 170/60 tires.”
Did you mean radial approved tube instead of tire ? I’m confused. ………. ( YES confused … about all kinds of things … that’s why I’m here ) ……….
Thanks for taking the time Gap ….. I appreciate your insights ………………….. Blitz
 

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What's the issue using a tube designed for radial tires? I know ADV tires can be purchased either tube type or tubeless and there does seem to be an issue with finding tubes that size. Does it have to be a special tube as well?
 

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The tube doesn't have to be special.

There are generally 3 types of motorcycle tyres
Tube type tyres
Tubless only tyres
Tubless that can be used with a tube

The inside of the tyre has to be compatible with a tube or it can generate heat and damage the tube.
 

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The tube doesn't have to be special.

There are generally 3 types of motorcycle tyres
Tube type tyres
Tubless only tyres
Tubless that can be used with a tube

The inside of the tyre has to be compatible with a tube or it can generate heat and damage the tube.
Why would you want to use a tube in a tubeless tire ? How is the inside of the tubeless tire made commpatable to a tube, and where does the heat come from, …friction ? ….and last: if the tube in a tubeless tire does get hot ..how is it ..that it makes a difference ..if it’s in a tubeless tire in the first place … where’s the advantage ? ..or disadvantage for that matter ? ………………………………..Blitz
 

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Your screen shot refers to pushbikes, https://www.cyclingweekly.com/ hence my previous comment.

My experience is different from yours, so I suggested that people should do their homework, that was all.

Here is one such article that Google found for me just now, and is much more in keeping with my personal experience. Tubed vs. tubeless tires: All you need to know - RevZilla
My screen shot is directly from the Adventure Motorcycling Handbook … I don’t know where you got push bike … the only time I’ll push a bike is when it’s out of gas … and then not very far …. More smoke I think, maybe your homework could use some touch up too ……………. Blitz

Reference post #30 …. What’s you take on answering my query ?

Font Screenshot Multimedia Software Logo
 

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Did you mean radial approved tube instead of tire ? I’m confused.
Yes, I did. That was a typo and I have edited it in my post. Thanks for catching it. You are correct that overall Tubeless is preferred.. lighter, safer, easier to fix a flat, etc. UNLESS you are in the middle of a trail off road or on an around the world trip in a third world country, where it is much easier to dismount and remount a tube tire. Off road also still prefers spoke wheels, and strong lightweight spoke wheels are almost all tube type, hence the popularity. You can seal the spokes, but then you lose the ability to replace a spoke out on the trial. I had to replace three on a trip out west when I hit a badger hole at 60mph. If I had sealed my spokes to run tubeless I would have been screwed.
 

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What's the issue using a tube designed for radial tires? I know ADV tires can be purchased either tube type or tubeless and there does seem to be an issue with finding tubes that size. Does it have to be a special tube as well?
If you have radial tires, you should have a tube rated for radial tires. They are stronger and designed to flex like a radial tire, and are better at dealing with the heat.
 

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Why would you want to use a tube in a tubeless tire ?
On a bike like yours you don't have a choice. The wheels require tubes, but the tires are tubeless. Nobody makes a 170/60-17 in a tube type, except maybe a Harley branded Dunlop.

How is the inside of the tubeless tire made commpatable to a tube, and where does the heat come from, …friction ? ….and last: if the tube in a tubeless tire does get hot ..how is it ..that it makes a difference ..if it’s in a tubeless tire in the first place … where’s the advantage ? ..or disadvantage for that matter ? ………………………………..Blitz
The inside of a tube and tubeless tire are different. There is an air proof skin or seal on the inside of a tubeless tire so that air pressure does not seep through the rubber. If you mount a tube type tire on a tubeless rim the pressure will drop significantly over the next few days. I've also seen a few tubeless tires that have what looks like a small foil patch inside the tire, which is actually an inventory control item. You have to remove these if you are running a tube or else it will wear the tube at that location. Tubes get hot in any tire, tube or tubeless style. There is no difference. A tube type tire is rated for speed and load based on the knowledge that it will have the required tube in it. A Tubeless tire does not take into consideration the heat generated from the tube as it isn't required, but when you put one in the tubeless tire to conform to the requirements of the wheel, then the heat it (and all tubes) generates needs to be taken into account, and that is why the general practice is to lower the speed and load rating of that tire under that circumstance.

Tire manufacturers have all sorts of rules we have all heard before.. never mix brands, never mix radial and non-radial, use the right tube, etc.. Despite these rules, they sometimes get broken by the moto OEM's, but in those cases they have tested that oddball and found that it performed to the required standard. A good example is the F800 which for years had a 90/90-21 on the front and 150/70-17 on the rear, and the bikes came from the factory with a bias front and radial rear. Not every manufacturer makes a radial 90/90-21, or a bias 170/60-17. They are getting a little more available now, but for years there was no choice but to mix bias and radial on that bike. There were issues with people buying replacements for their bikes and confusing tube type with tubeless, and seeing two tires of the same brand and model with two different price, and like all people they chose the cheaper one. As a result people would mount this cheaper tube type 90/90-21 on their tubeless wheel and wonder why it wouldn't hold air.

Mixing brands, and even models within a brand should be avoided unless you understand the differences and can plan accordingly. I've got Pirelli's on my R1250GSA right now. I can get the rear tire over till it is at the edge completely and will run out of tire long before the front ever gets to the edge. I know if I put an Avon Storm 3D on the front and keep the Pirelli on the rear then the front will run out of tread first which is more dangerous. Different tires have different profiles. As long as you are aware and ride accordingly then go for it, but since the US is so well known for being the land of litigation, the lawyers have to have those disclaimers to not mix brands.
 

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I just saw a video from Continental saying you cannot run a tube in a tubeless rim at all. Note I said rim. Apparently it's ok to run a tube in a tube-type rim with a tubeless tire, according to some sources, but never in a tubeless rim.
 

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On a bike like yours you don't have a choice. The wheels require tubes, but the tires are tubeless. Nobody makes a 170/60-17 in a tube type, except maybe a Harley branded Dunlop.



The inside of a tube and tubeless tire are different. There is an air proof skin or seal on the inside of a tubeless tire so that air pressure does not seep through the rubber. If you mount a tube type tire on a tubeless rim the pressure will drop significantly over the next few days. I've also seen a few tubeless tires that have what looks like a small foil patch inside the tire, which is actually an inventory control item. You have to remove these if you are running a tube or else it will wear the tube at that location. Tubes get hot in any tire, tube or tubeless style. There is no difference. A tube type tire is rated for speed and load based on the knowledge that it will have the required tube in it. A Tubeless tire does not take into consideration the heat generated from the tube as it isn't required, but when you put one in the tubeless tire to conform to the requirements of the wheel, then the heat it (and all tubes) generates needs to be taken into account, and that is why the general practice is to lower the speed and load rating of that tire under that circumstance.

Tire manufacturers have all sorts of rules we have all heard before.. never mix brands, never mix radial and non-radial, use the right tube, etc.. Despite these rules, they sometimes get broken by the moto OEM's, but in those cases they have tested that oddball and found that it performed to the required standard. A good example is the F800 which for years had a 90/90-21 on the front and 150/70-17 on the rear, and the bikes came from the factory with a bias front and radial rear. Not every manufacturer makes a radial 90/90-21, or a bias 170/60-17. They are getting a little more available now, but for years there was no choice but to mix bias and radial on that bike. There were issues with people buying replacements for their bikes and confusing tube type with tubeless, and seeing two tires of the same brand and model with two different price, and like all people they chose the cheaper one. As a result people would mount this cheaper tube type 90/90-21 on their tubeless wheel and wonder why it wouldn't hold air.

Mixing brands, and even models within a brand should be avoided unless you understand the differences and can plan accordingly. I've got Pirelli's on my R1250GSA right now. I can get the rear tire over till it is at the edge completely and will run out of tire long before the front ever gets to the edge. I know if I put an Avon Storm 3D on the front and keep the Pirelli on the rear then the front will run out of tread first which is more dangerous. different tires have different profiles. As long as you are aware and ride accordingly then go for it, but since the US is so well known for being the land of litigation, the lawyers have to have those disclaimers to not mix brands.
HolySh*t Gap … it’s complete hell when I repeatedly recognize how much I didn’t know I didn’t know. That was awesome … your time and expertise is appreciated Thank You. I’m really getting schooled on three or four threads the past couple of day …. So much to know, I need to make notes …. Blitz
 
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I just saw a video from Continental saying you cannot run a tube in a tubeless rim at all. Note I said rim. Apparently it's ok to run a tube in a tube-type rim with a tubeless tire, according to some sources, but never in a tubeless rim.
Thanks for the vid Gene … Good to know for all who didn’t ….. I got that one as a youngster ….. but that was so long ago they still used hot patches on the inside of bias ply nylon belted tires …. I can remember changing many more tires in the first half of my life than I have changed in the second half ….. much better rubber on the ground now than then …. Better chemistry, better and cheaper manufacturing processes too. ………………….. Blitz
 

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Damn, this thread is very educational!
@BaldyDave Should we make that a sticky?

It took me over an hour to digest all that knowledge presented here, thanks gentlemen for the interesting lecture!

YouTube or YouTube not, that is the question! 😵‍💫
 
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