Anyone still run tubes? Who makes the right size for the rear wheel? And other questions. . .

4722 Views 71 Replies 14 Participants Last post by Granitedigger, 3 mo ago

Granitedigger

I've taken two rides since winter rolled into these parts in October. And I've gotten two flats, my first ever. One was a box staple, today it was a screw. Needless to say, I was pretty bummed I got less than 40 miles out of the new tube I put in, with the tire dismount/mount, that cost me about $2 per mile.

So, my questions are.

1 - For those of us still running tubes, who makes the proper size tube for the rear tire. My local shop put in an undersized Bridgestone, which seemed fine, but I'd rather have the right spec tube.

2 - For those of you running Outex since 2014, 2015, how is it holding up? Any issues with the seal going bad over time?

3 - On our 2014 models, does the rim have the appropriate hook to safely run tubeless when Outex is installed, or did that come in 2015 and later with the rim update?

4 - Are there any tubeless rims available for a reasonable price that can be laced into the 2014 hubs?

Very much looking forward to the wisdom you all will impart. . .

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Forest

· #61 · 5 mo ago (Edited)

Granitedigger said:
Things I've picked up reading this thread and exploring a few rabbit holes along the way.

No US or Canadian distributor has chosen to import Continental tubes. I'm sure it's a business decision, but not sure what's behind it. Perhaps better margin on other brands, perhaps as a low cost leader, there is more net sales opportunity is selling a slightly higher priced tube at the same margin at scale.

There is a distinction between radial tubes and bias tubes, but talking about them that way is misleading. There's not really such a thing as a radial tube, it's more correct to think of them as tubes made for radial tires. Many motocross and off road tires are still bias ply tires, don't build the same amount of heat during use. Because they can be susceptible to pinch flats, many riders prefer to run heavy duty (thicker) tubes. Those tubes are not appropriate for use in road applications because they build and retain more heat than thinner tubes. The tubes used in radial tires tend to be thinner, more flexible, and retain less heat when in use. The Continental tubes are spec'd at 1.5mm, and the Metzler's between 1.7mm &1.8mm. The tubes for bias ply tires can be up to 4mm thick.

There is a significant difference in the rim between tubeless and tube type where the valve hole is. On tubeless type rims, there is a flat machined around the valve hole so the value can be set flat and seal properly. On a tube type wheel, the value seat integrated into the tube does the work of preventing tire from leaking from the value. As such, most tube type rims have no special treatment around the valve hole.

Speculation: I'm guessing that the reason it was recommended never to run tubes in tubeless rims with tubeless tires has to do with the valve hold situation and with the internal rim profile. It may be that the machined edges of the value stem hole are sharp enough to cut tubes. It's also possible that the valve stem seat on an inner tube won't set properly in a rim that has a narrow channel where the value hole is drilled. Again, just speculation. If you were running an inner tube on a tubeless rim and got a puncture in the tube near the valve stem (tubes do move when in use, and there is expansion and contraction that happens), the tubeless tire would loose air because the valve is not sealed to the rim in the same way it is when running a true tubeless setup.

Image of the inner rim profile on a 2014 r nineT. These are not traditional tube type rims. They do have the bump designed to hold the bead in place after the tire is mounted, which means that in theory, sealing the rim and using a tubeless tire is less risky than trying to do it on a rim that doesn't have the bump. My local shop was nice enough to snap these for me while replacing my tube and remounting my tire yesterday.

View attachment 161119 View attachment 161120

As you have shown ,
we have bead lock tubeless spoked wheels,
my 2018 has the same with a slightly different rim well design,
you will see MT and rim width in the markings,
it has a shallow taper to grip the inflated tyre , the raised inner rim edge prevents the tubeless tyre bead moving inwards holding it in place and air tight at the rim,
some early ktm and possibly others had morse taper, MT marked rims without the bead lock,
many tubed rims were marked WM, no taper or bead lock,
the mechanical motor-cross bead lock/clamps are a different set up for off road use,
we all have different preferences on our bikes, including tyres,
my personal choice is tyre secure on the rim, and tubeless tyres,
Road speed rarely gets to 100 mph,
the quicker turn in with less effort and suspension compliance with tubes removed works for me ,
the later shallow well cast and spoked bmw rims do need a bit more technique to dismount/mount which is reassuring when the flat tyre wallow starts,
Forest,

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gene_apodaca

· #62 · 5 mo ago

I didn't comprehend much of that last post at all. It went right over my head. As a scrambler owner, with tubeless spoked rims, I was planning on buying a tube for my tool kit in case I managed to tear the sidewall of a tire when far from civilization. I'm now wondering if that's a good idea now or just go with the likelihood of major tire damage as minimal and stick with plugs and a compressor already on hand.

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Baloo

· #63 · 4 mo ago

gene_apodaca said:
I didn't comprehend much of that last post at all. It went right over my head. As a scrambler owner, with tubeless spoked rims, I was planning on buying a tube for my tool kit in case I managed to tear the sidewall of a tire when far from civilization. I'm now wondering if that's a good idea now or just go with the likelihood of major tire damage as minimal and stick with plugs and a compressor already on hand.

If you tear your side wall a tube won't help. Not saying that it can't happen, but I have never experienced a torn sidewall on a puncture as of yet. Just a good old fashion plug kit should do the trick. I really don't understand this thread that much. If you're running tubeless, tires carry a patch kit and a pump. If you're running tube, tires carry an extra inner tube , pump and the proper tools to fix your tire. that seems like a logical thing to do. In my opinion tires.

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gene_apodaca

· #64 · 4 mo ago (Edited)

Baloo said:
If you tear your side wall a tube won't help.

Yes, but tires is such a fun and volatile topic. One of my favorites. You're probably right about the likelihood of tearing a sidewall. I imagined using a heavy fabric or a chunk of riding armor to protect the tube from a torn tire but that would mean I'd have to be able to remove the tire to accomplish such a patch and then a tube may not even work. I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'm sure a plug or two will get me home in just about any scenario. At the rate I'm burning through tires though, they'll ever get a chance to get old. So... what kind of oil should I use?

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BlitzSchnell

· #65 · 4 mo ago

gene_apodaca said:
I didn't comprehend much of that last post at all. It went right over my head. As a scrambler owner, with tubeless spoked rims, I was planning on buying a tube for my tool kit in case I managed to tear the sidewall of a tire when far from civilization. I'm now wondering if that's a good idea now or just go with the likelihood of major tire damage as minimal and stick with plugs and a compressor already on hand.

How could it hurt to carry a tube if it got you home … even at 15mph ……………………………………………… Blitz

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gene_apodaca

· #66 · 4 mo ago

BlitzSchnell said:
How could it hurt to carry a tube if it got you home … even at 15mph ……………………………………………… Blitz

The big issue is the extra tools required to get a tube in the tire. Mainly, the front axle wrench and tire irons big enough to break the bead. On a tubeless tire, they'd have to be robust to say the least. Storage space is a real premium on these bikes already. And, like @Baloo mentioned, the likelihood of tearing a dirt oriented tire on a bike this size seems wildly unlikely. Even a small tear can usually be managed with a few plugs, enough to get home anyway.

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BlitzSchnell

· #67 · 4 mo ago

gene_apodaca said:
The big issue is the extra tools required to get a tube in the tire. Mainly, the front axle wrench and tire irons big enough to break the bead. On a tubeless tire, they'd have to be robust to say the least. Storage space is a real premium on these bikes already. And, like @Baloo mentioned, the likelihood of tearing a dirt oriented tire on a bike this size seems wildly unlikely. Even a small tear can usually be managed with a few plugs, enough to get home anyway.

Got it …. Ofcourse …. I’ve never field stripped a tubless, and only a few tube tires, I was only thinking about the relatively low mass of a tube ….. duhhhh !
………………………………… I only ever carried tire tools when I was traveling and I kept them in my back pack. …………………..Blitz

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GapRunr

· #68 · 4 mo ago

If you have tubes just carry a patch kit. If you can see where the flat was created (nail, screw, etc. ) then put that part of the tire facing forward on a front tire and backward on a arear tire to give you more room to work, and using tire irons just pop off the bead on one side from the top to the bottom. Reach in and pull the damaged part of the tube out, patch it, slide it back in and pump it up. There is no need to remove the wheel to patch a tube.

If you have tubeless tires, it will be far less effort to simply plug the tire than it would be to install a tube. If you wanted to put a tube in, you'll need to remove the valve stem and TPMS sensor to make room for the valve stem of the tube.

In both of those cases, having the tire (or tube) filled with the proper amount of Ride-On TPS or Sahara Moto flat sealant would probably prevent the majority of average punctures.

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dxamet

· #69 · 4 mo ago

I change my tires myself at home, just because I can and get satisfaction out of it.
But it is impossible for me to repair an inner tube of that size on the road.
I just wouldn't get the tire lever between rim and tire, probably just ruining the rim.
I'm glad I got rid of my inner tubes.

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Baloo

· #70 · 4 mo ago

@GapRunr I agree a patch kit is always a good idea but my experience with tubes is that the majority of flats I've had, resulted in the tube being damaged beyond repair . Any extended rides on the standard has a front tire tube in my repair kit. (Front works in a rear). Adv habits die hard.

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Box3rCup

· #71 · 4 mo ago

GapRunr said:
On a bike like yours you don't have a choice. The wheels require tubes, but the tires are tubeless. Nobody makes a 170/60-17 in a tube type, except maybe a Harley branded Dunlop.

The inside of a tube and tubeless tire are different. There is an air proof skin or seal on the inside of a tubeless tire so that air pressure does not seep through the rubber. If you mount a tube type tire on a tubeless rim the pressure will drop significantly over the next few days. I've also seen a few tubeless tires that have what looks like a small foil patch inside the tire, which is actually an inventory control item. You have to remove these if you are running a tube or else it will wear the tube at that location. Tubes get hot in any tire, tube or tubeless style. There is no difference. A tube type tire is rated for speed and load based on the knowledge that it will have the required tube in it. A Tubeless tire does not take into consideration the heat generated from the tube as it isn't required, but when you put one in the tubeless tire to conform to the requirements of the wheel, then the heat it (and all tubes) generates needs to be taken into account, and that is why the general practice is to lower the speed and load rating of that tire under that circumstance.

Tire manufacturers have all sorts of rules we have all heard before.. never mix brands, never mix radial and non-radial, use the right tube, etc.. Despite these rules, they sometimes get broken by the moto OEM's, but in those cases they have tested that oddball and found that it performed to the required standard. A good example is the F800 which for years had a 90/90-21 on the front and 150/70-17 on the rear, and the bikes came from the factory with a bias front and radial rear. Not every manufacturer makes a radial 90/90-21, or a bias 170/60-17. They are getting a little more available now, but for years there was no choice but to mix bias and radial on that bike. There were issues with people buying replacements for their bikes and confusing tube type with tubeless, and seeing two tires of the same brand and model with two different price, and like all people they chose the cheaper one. As a result people would mount this cheaper tube type 90/90-21 on their tubeless wheel and wonder why it wouldn't hold air.

Mixing brands, and even models within a brand should be avoided unless you understand the differences and can plan accordingly. I've got Pirelli's on my R1250GSA right now. I can get the rear tire over till it is at the edge completely and will run out of tire long before the front ever gets to the edge. I know if I put an Avon Storm 3D on the front and keep the Pirelli on the rear then the front will run out of tread first which is more dangerous. Different tires have different profiles. As long as you are aware and ride accordingly then go for it, but since the US is so well known for being the land of litigation, the lawyers have to have those disclaimers to not mix brands.