[Gambo916]

Not here to slag people off just sharing my own experience

I understand and agree with your thinking DomKiwi.

With that in mind it's with the greatest of respect I wish to say the following, with no malice directed towards anyone

I have read (both on here and other places) about the group of rival tuners (calling themselves TreeTop IIRC) trying to undermine what HT do. Going from memory, they bemoan about various aspects of a HillTop remap, namely the simple downloading of a map into the ECU, before and after graphs showing very difference, inflated BHP power claims, and probably some other related stuff I can't remember.

Now here's the rub........looking at the pics you've posted and the comments and figures you've quoted, it seems to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Here's my personal observations and opinions.....

Before the remap your bike was dyno'd at producing 109bhp and 113Nm at the wheel. These figures are actually higher than what BMW themselves quote for what that motor (as you've previously stated) produces at the crank. How can that be? From memory, stock bikes make around high 80's to low 90bhp at the wheel. I really can't get my head around how your unmapped bike was producing approximately 10% more power than mapped bikes running similar mods. Could it be those dyno figures are in some way not accurate? Just out of interest, I note nearly all HillTop mapped bikes with decat headers make on average around the 100-102bhp mark.....but your graph shows a peak of 111.7bhp....yet apparently HillTop over inflate their figures. Go figure!

In one of your pics it shows your engine ECU on the bench being downloaded with what I can only presume is a generic (not custom for your individual bike) map. No mention of the fuelling and ignition tables being adjusted precisely for your particular bike whilst being rolling roaded has been made. So it seems it's OK for some to do that......but not HillTop! I therefore think the wording on that wall plaque is somewhat misleading.

It's been stated that the before and after graphs of HillTop's work shows very difference.......but, as you yourself have commented and shown there is very little difference between the before and after graphs of the map you've just received. Yet again it seems that's acceptable, just as long as it's not the HillTop maps that show no discernible difference. A case of rules for some, rules for other's maybe?

But here's the biggest question mark in my head.....

Although not a dyno operator, I have witnessed numerous dyno runs through my involvement with racing, and I have been told, and have read, how to spot a fake power graph. Due to the way a dyno works, and the maths associated with it, the power and torque curves will always cross at 5,252rpm. Every HillTop graph I have seen shows the lines crossing at 5,252rpm....but the graph you have posted shows the lines crossing at around 3,700rpm!! To my knowledge, that is just not mathematically possible. Going on that information, I know which way my money would be going on graphs which are real and which are fakes? Yet it's claimed the HT maps are faked.

If in doubt, there are many internet vids on the subject....here's just one...

There are other comments I could make about the perceived 'flaws/inaccuracies/holes/discrepancies' in a HT map, but I think I've said enough so far.

Now I'm not posting this to stir up shit, I'm just wanting to give a more balanced view to what so far I have seen to be a rather one sided debate.

I for one am happy with what I received from HT. If I wasn't I would have sought a refund. An improvement in smoothness and throttle control was what I was after, that's what I got, plus some extra go. Chasing bigger figures was definitely not my intention.

If you are happy with what you've received from Dave Wood, then I'm genuinely happy for you @DomKiwi. I hope the improvements you can actually feel are worth more than numbers.

EDIT - I've just zoomed in on that map and can now see it's not equally scaled, so that's probably the reason the lines don't cross @ 5,252rpm. My bad.

EDIT #2 - Looking again at the map I'm trying to work out and visualise in my mind's eye where the lines would cross if both vertical bhp and Nm scales were equal, and I'm not convinced they would actually cross @ 5,252rpm if that was the case. However, I do admit to being very tired, and having knocked back a few snifters, so willing to be proved otherwise.

 

[DomKiwi]

I understand and agree with your thinking DomKiwi.

With that in mind it's with the greatest of respect I wish to say the following, with no malice directed towards anyone

I have read (both on here and other places) about the group of rival tuners (calling themselves TreeTop IIRC) trying to undermine what HT do. Going from memory, they bemoan about various aspects of a HillTop remap, namely the simple downloading of a map into the ECU, before and after graphs showing very difference, inflated BHP power claims, and probably some other related stuff I can't remember.

Now here's the rub........looking at the pics you've posted and the comments and figures you've quoted, it seems to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Here's my personal observations and opinions.....

Before the remap your bike was dyno'd at producing 109bhp and 113Nm at the wheel. These figures are actually higher than what BMW themselves quote for what that motor (as you've previously stated) produces at the crank. How can that be? From memory, stock bikes make around high 80's to low 90bhp at the wheel. I really can't get my head around how your unmapped bike was producing approximately 10% more power than mapped bikes running similar mods. Could it be those dyno figures are in some way not accurate? Just out of interest, I note nearly all HillTop mapped bikes with decat headers make on average around the 100-102bhp mark.....but your graph shows a peak of 111.7bhp....yet apparently HillTop over inflate their figures. Go figure!

In one of your pics it shows your engine ECU on the bench being downloaded with what I can only presume is a generic (not custom for your individual bike) map. No mention of the fuelling and ignition tables being adjusted precisely for your particular bike whilst being rolling roaded has been made. So it seems it's OK for some to do that......but not HillTop! I therefore think the wording on that wall plaque is somewhat misleading.

It's been stated that the before and after graphs of HillTop's work shows very difference.......but, as you yourself have commented and shown there is very little difference between the before and after graphs of the map you've just received. Yet again it seems that's acceptable, just as long as it's not the HillTop maps that show no discernible difference. A case of rules for some, rules for other's maybe?

But here's the biggest question mark in my head.....

Although not a dyno operator, I have witnessed numerous dyno runs through my involvement with racing, and I have been told, and have read, how to spot a fake power graph. Due to the way a dyno works, and the maths associated with it, the power and torque curves will always cross at 5,252rpm. Every HillTop graph I have seen shows the lines crossing at 5,252rpm....but the graph you have posted shows the lines crossing at around 3,700rpm!! To my knowledge, that is just not mathematically possible. Going on that information, I know which way my money would be going on graphs which are real and which are fakes? Yet it's claimed the HT maps are faked.

If in doubt, there are many internet vids on the subject....here's just one...

There are other comments I could make about the perceived 'flaws/inaccuracies/holes/discrepancies' in a HT map, but I think I've said enough so far.

Now I'm not posting this to stir up shit, I'm just wanting to give a more balanced view to what so far I have seen to be a rather one sided debate.

I for one am happy with what I received from HT. If I wasn't I would have sought a refund. An improvement in smoothness and throttle control was what I was after, that's what I got, plus some extra go. Chasing bigger figures was definitely not my intention.

If you are happy with what you've received from Dave Wood, then I'm genuinely happy for you @DomKiwi. I hope the improvements you can actually feel are worth more than numbers.

EDIT - I've just zoomed in on that map and can now see it's not equally scaled, so that's probably the reason the lines don't cross @ 5,252rpm. My bad.

EDIT #2 - Looking again at the map I'm trying to work out and visualise in my mind's eye where the lines would cross if both vertical bhp and Nm scales were equal, and I'm not convinced they would actually cross @ 5,252rpm if that was the case. However, I do admit to being very tired, and having knocked back a few snifters, so willing to be proved otherwise.

I can just see people reading this thinking about buying booster plug instead 😂😂

There will always be people both sides of the fence and thats what makes life interesting. Thank you so much for your great input @Gambo916 and I can see exactly where you are coming from as a happy HT customer.
There will always be some kind of throwing dirt between the competition and I did hear about TreeTops tuning too being at war with HT. Let's not even go there plenty of heat here as it is 😂😂

Here is how I see it and hope this is gonna shine some light and answer some of your questions/concers/statements.

I took my bike to HT Mid August after reading one of your posts and it did look very promising. Jeff seems like a nice guy too. He refused to do dyno though as he said there is nothing new he will be able to see which has made me slightly concerned especially when you are about to part with big chunk of dollar! then
he plugged my bike in through obd and tried to read the file but he could not do that and said it has been tinkered with and his software can not access it. It was an ex demo bike which there are rumours that they come tweaked to boost sales so I have cut him a bit of slack although through obd port you can not access ecu (FACT) only adjust lambda sensor temperature reading which if you drop it by 10% it increases fueling and ride becomes far better (could potentialy be the secret mapping HT talking about it)

Either way I was very gutted my bike could not be remapped and started looking elsewhere hence I have ended up at DWR

I have never stated any measures at the crank btw as you have previously said there must have been a typo or misunderstanding.

Logic is telling me if my bike is ex demo and has been tinkered with as originally suggested by HT then confirmed by DWR ( because they had to send it off to decode it) and also adding my mods into account there is little surprise figures were quite high to begin with.

It would be interesting to see dyno before the mods though would answer a lot of questions for both of us.

In regards of removing ecu yes my file has been copied into their system then sent of to decode so that they can access it, then major parameters has been changed and uploaded back onto my ecu. There has been final adjustments made on the second dyno run via narrow and wide range lambda sensor which was stuck in the back of the end can during the run.

Bottom line here is we are both happy with the results from what we have done to our bikes and that is the main thing. And yes you are right those graphs mean nothing it is all about how bike feels after and I must say I love it and Im sure you love yours too! And that is the main thing

And also Im sure both parties being competitors telling porkies to some extent to attract more customers they both can not be 100%right or 100%wrong truth is somewhere in the middle

Now to be fair to David Wood snr he said to me one thing which has stuck in my head. His words were :

We are not magicians and we are limited to what we can do what bmw has not done already to this brilliant engine, we only adjusting things and making it run as it should because bmw couldn't do it due to emissions and other regulations.

 

[BaldyDave]

I can just see people reading this thinking about buying booster plug instead 😂😂

LOL don't bring up a BP discussion too, that'll start another round of debate!

From my limited experience I can't ever remember any tuning shop that hasn't had mud thrown their way by a customer or rival tuner. Sometimes the expectations of what can be done to an engine are simply unrealistic or there might be something personal or historic fuelling the rhetoric.

As has been said its up to the individual to do their research and make an informed choice as to what tuner to use.

I'm glad there are more options coming to light on this forum for the UK for riders to get their beloved boxer tuned to improve the way they work. I'd be equally grateful of other members around the globe post their experiences with tuning shops too.

In any case its good to have a balanced and respectful discussion like this on this thread, but it would also be good for anyone else that has used David Wood's services on their 9T to have their say too.

Thanks again gents for keeping the discussion respectful.

 

[Gambo916]

I can just see people reading this thinking about buying booster plug instead 😂😂

x2

Thank you so much for your great input @Gambo916 and I can see exactly where you are coming from as a happy HT customer.

And thank you too for your's @DomKiwi.

Please allow me to respectfully explain/clarify some of my previous wafflings....

My response to your comment about output measurements being taken from the crank came from here >>>

Crank values are only measured in the factory prior engine installation in the machine.

As BMW quote a stock engine makes 108bhp, I would assume (and as you state above) those figures were taken at the crank.......yet your unmapped machine was dyno'd showing 109bhp at the wheel. Something doesn't quite sit right with me there, as most unmapped bikes show about 20bhp less, which is why I raised the question/confusion of crank v wheel figures.

The statement in your last post about the ECU is not accessible through the OBD I can't comment on, as I sent my ECU up to HillTop, so I don't know if that's correct or not. However, your mention of the Lamba temp readings only being adjusted that way suggests that if that's what HT are doing (coz they attempted to map your bike through the OBD) then to my mind surely that adjustment would be visible to, and overwriteable by, the BMW dealer diagnostic system. HT claim that isn't the case, and I know first hand that claim to be true. HT say their map is placed in an area of the ECU that isn't accessible to the BMW systems, or those who do not hold the licence/rights or appropriate equipment to do so. Maybe this is the reason so much is said by competitors that no HT remaps can be found in the ECU when they look for them. Who know's ehh?

Now I agree wholeheartly with what you say about what matters most is that we are both happy with the end results of HT and Dave Wood remaps respectively.

I also agree with your statement that it's likely all parties are telling porkies to some extent, and neither is 100% right nor 100% wrong.

Just to prove I'm not being 'anti' Dave Wood or trying to put him down in this thread.......I completely understand and accept his words in your final paragraph about the emissions regs etc, and not being magicians in being able to put them right. What he has said makes complete sense.

Right....this has been a cracking discussion, and I've thoroughly enjoyed partaking in it and reading the input/opinions/views of everyone else........but I fear we have sort of inadvertently merged the HillTop and Dave Wood remap threads into one, which I'm sure the mods and members won't thank us for....so if anyone is miffed about that, please accept my apols.

 

[DomKiwi]

x2



And thank you too for your's @DomiKiwi.

Please allow me to respectfully explain/clarify some of my previous wafflings....

My response to your comment about output measurements being taken from the crank came from here >>>



As BMW quote a stock engine makes 108bhp, I would assume (and as you state above) those figures were taken at the crank.......yet your unmapped machine was dyno'd showing 109bhp at the wheel. Something doesn't quite sit right with me there, as most unmapped bikes show about 20bhp less, which is why I raised the question/confusion of crank v wheel figures.

The statement in your last post about the ECU is not accessible through the OBD I can't comment on, as I sent my ECU up to HillTop, so I don't know if that's correct or not. However, your mention of the Lamba temp readings only being adjusted that way suggests that if that's what HT are doing (coz they attempted to map your bike through the OBD) then to my mind surely that adjustment would be visible to, and overwriteable by, the BMW dealer diagnostic system. HT claim that isn't the case, and I know first hand that claim to be true. HT say their map is placed in an area of the ECU that isn't accessible to the BMW systems, or those who do not hold the licence/rights or appropriate equipment to do so. Maybe this is the reason so much is said by competitors that no HT remaps can be found in the ECU when they look for them. Who know's ehh?

Now I agree wholeheartly with what you say about what matters most is that we are both happy with the end results of HT and Dave Wood remaps respectively.

I also agree with your statement that it's likely all parties are telling porkies to some extent, and neither is 100% right nor 100% wrong.

Just to prove I'm not being 'anti' Dave Wood or trying to put him down in this thread.......I completely understand and accept his words in your final paragraph about the emissions regs etc, and not being magicians in being able to put them right. What he has said makes complete sense.

Right....this has been a cracking discussion, and I've thoroughly enjoyed partaking in it and reading the input/opinions/views of everyone else........but I fear we have sort of inadvertently merged the HillTop and Dave Wood remap threads into one, which I'm sure the mods and members won't thank us for....so if anyone is miffed about that, please accept my apols.

Hahaha it really has been a cracking discussion and I hope one day if our paths cross we can carry on that topic over few pints down the boozer... Could be long night though

Yes I get all your points and it all makes sense if we were all the same and went down the same path life would be boring LOL

Getting back on the subject of my recent remap ( which other members probably can not wait to see ) I have just came from 40 mile suburban ride between villages and town and I have to say I was grinning all the way!
Engine sounds very healthy and purrs like a kitten, throttle response and delivery is outstandingly smooth and more forgiving which makes ride more relaxed.