[rich46]

Hi Winston,
when you are performing the test , do you recall how long the ignition / 10 a fuse is live total time in minutes to reach 10 v from 12.87, ,
It is possible to measure the actual current drawn by measuring the voltage across the fuse,
there is a calculation matrix depending on type of fuse, i use an amp hound when checking muliple fuse boxes to save time,
out of interest what other additional electrics are added and how are they powered/ controlled
have they been in use when the bike intermittently fails,
what journey times frequency in the days before the non start,
what battery voltage is displayed when the non start occurs without cranking ,
apologies for the questions, trying to help,
Forest

Just a wee reminder our modern motorbikes with the new generation of ECM's and ECU's pretty much are at an end of function when the voltage drops below 9.5 volts. The lithium batteries will often not even be able to pick-up a charge from your charger when they get below 5 volts. You can sometimes trick them by using jumper wires and wiring them in parallel using a trickle charger. All the same the days of babying a engine to start with TLC and luck when the battery is down are over. You pretty much need a full charge to get all the electronics (ECU,etc) to kick-in and the bloody thing to start. My Racer is DTTW (dead to the World) when the battery is at 9.55 v. I know because I had it out in my shop with the seat off so I tried a battery off a racer that was at 9.55 v. Light (some) came on but otherwise nada.

 

[rich46]

Just a wee reminder our modern motorbikes with the new generation of ECM's and ECU's pretty much are at an end of function when the voltage drops below 9.5 volts. The lithium batteries will often not even be able to pick-up a charge from your charger when they get below 5 volts. You can sometimes trick them by using jumper wires and wiring them in parallel using a trickle charger. All the same the days of babying a engine to start with TLC and luck when the battery is down are over. You pretty much need a full charge to get all the electronics (ECU,etc) to kick-in and the bloody thing to start. My Racer is DTTW (dead to the World) when the battery is at 9.55 v. I know because I had it out in my shop with the seat off so I tried a battery off a racer that was at 9.55 v. Light (some) came on but otherwise nada.

OH ! by the way when I put the R 9 Racers proper battery in at 13.1 vit fired right up happy as a clam.

 

[Forest]

Hi Winston,
Apologies i have been busy and skim read the thread,
i have had a good read and hope the below helps, ,

i am assuming you have the regular 12AH 200 cca battery, ?
from your simulation tests 5 can shut down cycles plus a little extra say 6 minutes collectively without charging, to draw from the settled charged voltage to just over 10 v,
it would be ideal to start with fully charged using an ammeter from the battery positive to the bus bar, to measure all current being drawn during your 5 cycle tests, amps , volts plus time drawn,
with accessories fitted and set as they would be for riding when the random low volts non starts occur,
measuring the exact current draw including fuel pump and exhaust flap cycles, can awake 60 second to shutdown loads etc ,
would be useful for clarity of actual current draw and remaining voltage in ready to ride mode,
the next step is to start the bike with the battery at least down to 12.4 v and measure voltage and current flow into the battery for at least 5 minutes, and then considering recent journey times decide if sufficient potential is being restored,

my reasoning is to establish how much of the battery potential is used against recovery reserve capacity as accurately as possible,
which would be before any component chasing,
yours clearly runs out of reserve capacity over a known period,

I use an inductive clamp type multimeter, its less invasive from a time to dismantle perspective, and creating un necessary fault codes
and covers a wide current range, the slight drift even for small values is marginal,

Only once the running charge time and demand is considered within capability of the battery to be acceptable,
Would i consider moving to component draw and then heavy draw tests,
Such as starter current at the heavy supply cable and voltage at cranking can help diagnose high / low current draw and focus on wiring and starter performance,
good luck,
Forest,

 

[Williwaw]

@IanHoots thanks on the alternator diode. As for drawing constantly, this draw does seem to be constant, it only stops when the main relay opens the circuit. I have not disconnected the alternator yet.

Yes when I pull the 10amp fuse, the draw is not there, which is why I am pretty sure the problem is on that circuit. As for starting with the 10amp fuse out, it cant because the starter is on that circuit.

As for the idle actuator drawing that amount of current itself, I dont think so.. but I am disconnecting components one by one just to try an isolate the problem. My guess is that it is a short, bare copper wire on frame, that is causing a draw this strong, that doesn't make any sound. But that guess is mostly because thats what I have seen on my bikes before. I have thought about shooting around with this thermometer gun looking for high temps.. but really hoping that disconnecting something is going to isolate it to a single component and its wiring.

That's what I'm thinking: keep the, well rested bike in a stable, cool temperature environment and spend some time with a laser temperature sensor.

 

[sizzlingbadger]

I measured my 2018 UGS so you have some references, note my bike hasn't been run for about week and is not on a trickle charger.

Key Off 0.0A 12.8v
Key On 2.9A 12.4v
After 3mins 2.8A 12.3v
Key Off 2.1A 12.4v
After 60sec 0.0A 12.6v

I can repeat this several times with very little voltage loss... my battery gets back up 12.8v after a few minutes of no load.

It does seem like you have you have something drawing substantial current from the battery when the key is on, if it is getting down to 10v. You need to actually measure the current to know what is really happening.

Page 7.40 of the Haynes manual should guide you to what components are effected when the 10A fuse is pulled. You can rule out the starter motor and alternator as they are connected to the battery even when the key is off.

 

[winston]

Interesting problem you got there.... Now call me crazy, but isn't everything on these bikes canbus?
Instead of blown fuses we get canbus to shut down circuits. Have you tried checking for logged events?

Yes, thx, using GS-911. No faults. Passed all tests.

 

[winston]

Winston, Being a simple guy I'd first take my test light and go through all the accessories and switches (side-stand,horn,turn-signals) to see if anything is hot that should not be with the key off. I'd then pull apart the switches so I can get to the small circuit boards and do the similar test. I have had the same issue with a Honda Goldwing and a Kawi touring bike and found the trouble there; the result of a wire being chafed by electronics without proper install by the owner. Something is drawing electrons from somewhere so I always start with the most easy to repair. If the trouble is there you replace or repair a wire or switch takes less time and will most probably cost the least. If the trouble is within the more complex components then go with God and good fortune.

With things such as wiring troubles remember the old adage "when you hear the sounds of hoof beats look first for horses not Zebras " I only say this because your trouble seems rather simple in that your battery is not crashing, there's no smoke and the wrenched thing starts from time to time. Now it may be some demon in the ECU but at least hope not.
I have had one faze of the starter motor go bad from time to time so when the starter is in one spot the thing will not start or is hard to start; put the motorbike in gear and bump the thing a bit against the Bendix and try again and off you go. I don't even know if this is even relevant in modern motorbikes and one would think you'd be getting some proper error message on the clocks if this was the trouble but it's a thought..

Thx, I have not gotten into the switches yet. One by one, with the tank up, I disconnected 10 components, and cycled the key on/off watching voltage. The voltage always dropped regardless. Then I tried @IanHoots idea and got a thermal imager. Low and behold, the idle actuator lit up like a candle. I had already tested them individually, but I thought, perhaps they must both be disconnected at the same time. Nope. Same voltage drop. But very cool idea and good to see that I could not find any hot spots.

Just above my index finger you see the idle actuator, a bit blurry in the background, but that's what is showing warm in the lcd screen. For anyone who wonders, above that and going over the air intake is the black flexible conduit, the wire loom, which is carrying all must custom wiring for running lights, horn relay, and phone charger, all of which are individually slid into braided cable sleeve. All my previous electrical problems, with other bikes, have been due to wire coating being rubbed off and touching the frame, usually combined the the fact that a wire was not properly routed or secured, so this time around, I took no chances. Everything is then zip tied, or sometimes while working out the routing, I will temporarily use velcro cable ties, then once the design is set, secured with zip ties. All my work goes into the healtech tb-usb2, which is connected to the battery thru the positive bar just behind the tank, and a rock solid ground. This heal teach unit only turns on power to my peripherals once the bike is running and rpm's are above idling. Main goal being, nothing I wire up can pull power until the alternator is cranking. The other goal, is that in troubleshooting times like these, to disconnect all my work, I simply disconnect the healtech unit. And another benefit is that you dont get a stack of eye connectors piling up on your positive post.

 

[winston]

Hi Winston,
when you are performing the test , do you recall how long the ignition / 10 a fuse is live total time in minutes to reach 10 v from 12.87, ,
It is possible to measure the actual current drawn by measuring the voltage across the fuse,
there is a calculation matrix depending on type of fuse, i use an amp hound when checking muliple fuse boxes to save time,
out of interest what other additional electrics are added and how are they powered/ controlled
have they been in use when the bike intermittently fails,
what journey times frequency in the days before the non start,
what battery voltage is displayed when the non start occurs without cranking ,
apologies for the questions, trying to help,
Forest

Thanks, as for live time, each test is about 1 minute 15 seconds max. 15 seconds key on, probly even less, because as soon as I see the voltage drop, I know the draw is there, and then the cpu or something on the bike opens the main relay at exactly 1 minute from key off. Thanks for math tip, I figured there must be tables for determining amp draw from voltage drop, AWG, and time, but never knew for sure. Thanks for the amp hound tip, looking into that. I have always found the ammeter function on multimeters to be fiddly, esp burning out the 10a fuse in them. Just mentioned additional electronics in previous post, 40 watt running lights, horn, phone charger. Did not mention the hyper-lite LED turn signals and brakes, but given the 700+ watt alternator, hard to find trouble in the list. Problem started before I used the heated grips. Daily trips 30m+, never measured any daily voltage drop with bike off, measuring in the hour, then following morning.. never seen a noticeable drop. Appears to be limited to when bike is on. As for measuring voltage before a no can crank event. Since I started measuring voltage, I haven't had one. that said, when I did have those events, in less than 1 hour on the 2amp noco charger, the battery is at float charge... and always starts then.

 

[winston]

I measured my 2018 UGS so you have some references, note my bike hasn't been run for about week and is not on a trickle charger.

Key Off 0.0A 12.8v
Key On 2.9A 12.4v
After 3mins 2.8A 12.3v
Key Off 2.1A 12.4v
After 60sec 0.0A 12.6v

I can repeat this several times with very little voltage loss... my battery gets back up 12.8v after a few minutes of no load.

It does seem like you have you have something drawing substantial current from the battery when the key is on, if it is getting down to 10v. You need to actually measure the current to know what is really happening.

Page 7.40 of the Haynes manual should guide you to what components are effected when the 10A fuse is pulled. You can rule out the starter motor and alternator as they are connected to the battery even when the key is off.

Thanks a ton for doing this test and posting voltage PLUS amps! Extremely helpful. I am going to get something to measure amps, perhaps the amp hound. Thanks for the manual tip, not sure if I've seen that. And thanks for the info about the alternator and starter motor remaining connected even after key off. I thought the main relay disconnected them when it opened.

 

[winston]

Thanks everyone who read and esp all who posted. I basically gave up after 10 disconnects and the heat imager. All that was left under the tank to disconnect was zipped and taped bundles.. and I considered that if I tore them all apart, what would be the chances that I didn't find the problem, and instead created another, and decided those were decent chances.. and that since the problem was not critical, I would just set it aside and go ride. Which I did with no problems. Now circling back, some good ideas here on how to isolate the problem have inspired me to carry on and tool up for the next problem that comes around.

 

[GapRunr]

@winston Do you have the alarm? It will draw when the bike is off.

 

[Forest]

Hi Winston,
if i were to consider the amp hound and its useful but limited function on circuit loads ,
an inductive amp clamp would be my first choice for general testing, and my go to for this task,
its important to quantify the current drawn,
measuring directly at the battery ,performing tests as Sizzling Badger has,
Then the current flow every thing off with no load ideally no more than 0.05a,
then charging current being absorbed into the battery, it should climb to a peak and settle down to approx 20% of the rated ah capacity , t which could be tested after a journey to avoid overheating if necessary,
The alternator max output is just over 55a,
bearing in mind the oe battery is 12 ah there is not much reserve power to play with,
its well known the battery needs to be 100% , mainly due to the old school car type high current draw starter motor , and the big old engine running gloopy 15w50 oil,
as the issue has not occured since your testing simulations and support charging, the above should help find why the battery is running out of reserve power,
see attached, this is my multimeter that i use before, amp hound, thermal mapping and scope,
good luck, forest

 

[BlitzSchnell]

Thx, I have not gotten into the switches yet. One by one, with the tank up, I disconnected 10 components, and cycled the key on/off watching voltage. The voltage always dropped regardless. Then I tried @IanHoots idea and got a thermal imager. Low and behold, the idle actuator lit up like a candle. I had already tested them individually, but I thought, perhaps they must both be disconnected at the same time. Nope. Same voltage drop. But very cool idea and good to see that I could not find any hot spots.

View attachment 160242

Just above my index finger you see the idle actuator, a bit blurry in the background, but that's what is showing warm in the lcd screen. For anyone who wonders, above that and going over the air intake is the black flexible conduit, the wire loom, which is carrying all must custom wiring for running lights, horn relay, and phone charger, all of which are individually slid into braided cable sleeve. All my previous electrical problems, with other bikes, have been due to wire coating being rubbed off and touching the frame, usually combined the the fact that a wire was not properly routed or secured, so this time around, I took no chances. Everything is then zip tied, or sometimes while working out the routing, I will temporarily use velcro cable ties, then once the design is set, secured with zip ties. All my work goes into the healtech tb-usb2, which is connected to the battery thru the positive bar just behind the tank, and a rock solid ground. This heal teach unit only turns on power to my peripherals once the bike is running and rpm's are above idling. Main goal being, nothing I wire up can pull power until the alternator is cranking. The other goal, is that in troubleshooting times like these, to disconnect all my work, I simply disconnect the healtech unit. And another benefit is that you dont get a stack of eye connectors piling up on your positive post.

Your logic and applied experience are real jewels for me thanx …. and the thermal gun idea was brilliant !
Great logic and creative thinking… thanks to all contributors. You’re why this forum is so … Cool ! ………. .I Learned a great deal……thanks for sharing your time…..Cheers Mates ………………….Blitz ✌🏻